Monday, April 03, 2006

A public response to an anonymous comment

Isn't it nice when a person's comments on a post exactly prove the point you'd been trying to make?...

A person who identifies themselves only as "NCS" said that they "noticed a lot of things I wanted to respond to."

Well, there are a few things I'd like to respond to, as well...the commenter's words will be in italics, from now on...

One thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is that you basically do not believe the Bible at all. You are putting what YOU think and feel and what your body feels above the Word of God.
One thing that sticks out repeatedly in your commenting is the amazingly arrogant assumption that you know what I believe.

Did you happen to catch the item - in my very first post - that said that I'd been completely celibate (no sex whatsoever) since 1994?? Do you think I could have done that without the help of God? What sorts of thoughts and prayers do you suppose I was "feeding myself" in order to set myself apart from any kind of intimate contact? I sure wasn't getting that out of Out magazine...

I had several friends that were Christians, went into homosexuality then LEFT it, got married but even they will tell you they sought the Lord for deliverance for this reason: because they knew it was SPIRITUALLY wrong and they WANTED TO PLEASE THE LORD. Anything you feed will GROW.

It's interesting...I've had the similar experience, in reverse, it seems...

I have several friends who still think they are Christians, but are in fact sodomites. Oh, they are married, and blissfully heterosexual in all their physical activities. But they were sodomites, nonetheless - not according to what most folks think about Sodom in tradition, but according to the word of God. They, too, knew that their behavior was "SPIRITUALLY wrong" - but they just didn't care about "pleasing the Lord." Still don't, for that matter.

Because, you see, they come to church in their Lexuses and Infinitis and Land Rovers, wearing Rolex watches and $1,000 suits, and they mouth pious sewage about loving the Lord all the while. But they refuse to contribute a nickel to the food-pantry, the metro-area housing projects, or other efforts to care for the poor and downtrodden. And they certainly would never actually go down there to help.

And you see, my Bible is very clear about the sin of Sodom:
" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.'" (Ezekiel 16:49)

What do you suppose those Christians were feeding themselves?....

So much of what I read on your site says this: "I will place my own body,what I feel and my personal experience above the Word of God."

No - on this site I haven't done anything of the kind. How could I have remained celibate for a decade, if I were placing my body above the word of God?

What I have done is try to reconcile Scripture and my own experience. How can a God who "knew me before I was knitted in the womb" allow enough stitches to drop to make me this way? Because, you see, I had to be created this way. I never chose this - who in God's name would? And I never abandoned anything.

(Well, that's a lie. I abandoned my natural homosexual state long enough to be married for six years, waiting for God to fix me. But I sure never abandoned what you would call "natural desires," because I never had 'em to begin with.)

I am not trying to wound you! But God set down principles for us to live by. Basically, He says: 'do it My Way.'

You're absolutely right. God does say, "Do it my way." But I'm not sure you're seeing what God thinks "it" is...

Let's look to the Scripture, for instance, and see how we are supposed to be treating those who are outside of the community of faith (which seems to be where gay people end up):
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34)

He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. (Deuteronomy 10:18-20)

Sounds just like our current so-called "Christian" nation's approach to broken families and immigrants, doesn't it?

Well, we can skip all that, can't we? After all, none of that stuff actually applies anymore, right? It's Old Testament stuff...all that law stuff has been fulfilled in Christ. So let's look at the New Testament...

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)

You know, I've checked 4 different translations - and not one of them says "love your straight neighbor as yourself." Has the Christian church acted in a loving way toward their gay and lesbian neighbors? Hmmm...might have to uncheck that box...

And we won't even get into Matthew 25:31-46, which Jesus tells us is going to separate the sheep from the goats.

In short, there are supposedly 7 texts about homosexuality - about which there is a significant amount of debate on whether the true intent is "people with homosexual orientation," which was unknown in the Biblical world, or if it was "straight people forsaking normal passions" (Romans 1).

But there are LITERALLY HUNDREDS of verses in this sacred Scripture on which there is no question about the stated intent - and about which the straight Christian church has failed to act, consistently, for two thousand years.

All I'm going to suggest is that before you go pickin' at the splinter in my eye, you'd best attend to the log in your own. Somebody important had something to say about that, too...

How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.(Matthew 7:4-5)

Jesus said: 'if you love me, KEEP my commands')and so he can show forth His holiness and goodness in us.

Absolutely. And I think the gay and lesbian community would be delighted if so-called Christians would just stop being so damn selective about which commandments we're ALL gonna follow.

And many foster homes these days are VERY nice...not all are like the stuff you see in the media.

Really? Come to Chicago and show me. I was a youth advisor for years, and got to see first-hand what loving, caring Chrstians did to kids in those "nice" foster homes. Or talk to my friend Norma, the social worker and Methodist minister in Kansas City. Tell us about how nice foster homes are...

Also, the average length of gay partnerships is 5 years or LESS. And in 20 years I have yet to be in a 'happy' gay home. There is usually a lot of power struggles going on.

Well, I can't address the 5-year statistic - because there are very, very few legal "gay partnerships." No such thing as gay marriage, you know. But isn't it interesting that the states which have allowed gay partnerships have the lowest rates of divorce, and those who have explicitly forbidden gay partnerships so far have the highest rate of straight divorce, and the highest rates of child abuse, in the nation? "They'll know we are Christians by our love," eh?

If you have yet to be in a "happy" gay home in 20 years, all I can say is, you need to get out more. Since, by definition, the number of children in "gay homes" is virtually nil, it follows that all the physical and sexual abuse going on is in straight people's homes - nor are those kids in foster care ending up there because of the breakup of gay marriages.

I intend no condemnation here..but for years, you fed all those desires and they grew and now they are ruling you and coloring all your current experiences.

How can you possibly know what I have fed in my heart? How can you say that, not knowing the number of hours I have knelt in tearful prayer, begging God to "heal" me, make me straight, and fix me? How can you question my sincerity, not having known what Gethsemanes I have experienced? Can you really be that arrogant, to claim to know my heart and my experience from a few blog entries?

And as for being "changed" or "healed," I have come to believe that I am being "changed into His likeness" - being healed of the self-hate and self-loathing I have lived with for 30 years.

You obviously "understand" nothing - and your ability to judge me, and my beliefs, and my history, based on this particular rant is absolutely unbelievable.

How dare you even pretend to profess to know what I believe and what I don't! If I didn't believe the central promise of Christ, his death and resurrection for my sins (and yours), I would have taken my own life in despair a dozen times over by now. My hope is built on Christ alone - regardless of who I sleep with (or don't, in this case), who I vote for, or anything else. Check out 1st Cor. 15:3-8, if you need to see my own personal credo.

I could go on, but I suspect it won't even prompt you to read any of my own backstory - let alone believe any of it. So I'm just going to leave it be.

Your comments, however, have become the perfect proof-text for everything I'd written in my earlier post. I appreciate that more than you'll ever know.


  1. Quoting an anonymous comment: Also, the average length of gay partnerships is 5 years or LESS.

    First, I have no idea where the commenter got the statistic, but I wonder how this compares to the length of non-marital relationships among straights?

    Second, although it is spurious to do so, statistics like this are usually tossed around to show that gay/lesbian relationships are less stable than straight marriages. I've no doubt that is true, but the test will be the divorce statistics in Massachusetts after five years. Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the country for straight marriages, and I'll be curious to see how Massachusetts gay/lesbian marriages compare in five years and in a decade.

    Third, according to National Center for Disease Control and US Census statistics, about 20% of straight first marriages last less than five years, about 33% of straight first marriages last less than 10 years, and 46% of straight first marriages last less than 15 years. Second and subsequent marriages among straights are disasterous by comparison -- 47% of second straight marriages end in divorce within 10 years. Straight marriages are unstable, to say the least.

    Quoting an anonymous comment: And in 20 years I have yet to be in a 'happy' gay home. There is usually a lot of power struggles going on.

    Steve, I agree with your comment about the commenter "getting out more".

    The couples I know seem to be happy after many years -- Eugenia and Mary were together 62 years, Ed and Raphaelo have been together 37 years, Jon and Sam have been together 34 years, Miriam and Hannah 27, and so on.

    Any statement based on "the couples I know ..." (your commenter's and mine, too) is based on a limited, non-statistical sample. I happen to know people in stable relationships; your commenter does not. It comes down to nothing more than that ...

    It is not clear how your commenter measures "happy".

    The model of the evangelical Christian marriage (the husband is the head of the household, with ultimate God-given right and responsibility to make all decisions concerning marriage and family, while the wife is subordinate to her husband in all things) may be a proper, Bible-based model for happiness among opposite-sex couples, but the model does not work well among same-sex couples, where power, decision-making and repsonsibility must necessarily be shared.

    It may be that your commenter's view that same-sex relationships have a lot of "power struggles" might be nothing more than a result of the fact that same-sex couples do not have a Bible-based head of household, empowered by God with wisdom, strength and judgment, but have to develop a working decisional model for themselves.

    I have no problems with evangelical Christians living out whatever marital model they wish to follow, and I have no doubt that a relationship in which the husband makes all the decisions can be a happy relationship for both husband and wife, given the right couple. I know several Christian couples who follow this model, and it seems to work for them.

    But I don't think that it exports well to same-sex coules, or to many straight couples, either.

  2. as a total stranger butting in here, can i offer my support and appreciation for the stand you have taken here? I am female, straight, middle-aged and a committed christian of conservative (but not American) ilk. I have worked as a prayer counsellor among abused and broken people, I have my own dark story, and one thing I have learned is that anyone who presumes to judge the struggles of another's soul is a fool. The darkest and most painful places are also the places where we are most utterly alone, except for that secret sustenance which comes from the Spirit of God. All of us are broken, all of us are sinful, each of us (who is even trying, and many aren't) struggles to know what it means to try and incarnate and express the love of Jesus through our wayward needy flesh. You have chosen the hard way, the via crucis, the way of seeking righteousness in the midst of desolation that is very near to the heart of God. may He bless you in ways beyond what you have dreamt ..

  3. Wow. I read this post and my heart physically aches for you. I don't even know where to begin.
    I am so sorry for all the hurt and condemnation you have received in the name of God.

    "Therefore, there is now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Rom. 8:1

    You need to remember that no matter what, nothing can separate you from the love of Christ.

    People suck. The very fact that we're 'fallen' means that every one of us has the potential to either be a light or be one who tramples all light.

    To me, whether or not I agree with you on all or any of the above mentioned issues, is not important. You and I are very much alike in that we're struggling to know God more and become more like Him. It's a process that will take our entire lives.

    I don't know everything - I am jaded by my hurts, my perceptions, my life lessons and I feel that striving to know God's heart and allowing Him to refine me, will eventually heal those wounds and allow me a clearer, more God-like perspective.

    Mine at the moment is this - I will walk, strive and grow alongside of you, pray for your complete healing and wholeness, and support you the best I can... if that's alright by you.

  4. Steve;

    You know where I stand on you, on life, on homosexuality and on gentlemen such as this one.....I am not known for restraint of tongue or pen when it comes to dealing with this type of theological frankenstein..... If I began right now to write in how many ways I think he is full of shit, the sun would shine on me in the morning and I still would not have finished. I admire your methodical, restrained scripture based refutation of every heinous assinine smary bit of holier than though intellectually bancrupt puke that has drivelled out of this bible thumping stepford wife clone of ralf reed....with the emphasis on the RALF....these self rightous hypocrites only prove to me that not only is evolution a fact, but it is most limited in its ability to move the whole race forward very far....While you know for multiple reasons I do not take the bible as factual word of anything.....Yet I belive in God...I just find he does not need to be demeaned by being shovelled through man's tin horn called the bible....but if I did, I would rant day and night and quote verse after verse which show this asshole is a sinner of the first order....there I go with that famous restraint again....but that would be a waste of my, self rightous anger is best left to those who can handle it, right? I would have to simply end with matthew, the verse number fails me, but where jesus says beware of the many false prophets who will come in my name when I am gone....

    I hope this fellow didnt touch your soul with any of his bullshit, and that you were laughing as you wrote out your response. Don't let these sanctimonious brain dead MF's get to you, man. They are here only for satan to have playtoys to work with. They serve no higher calling.

    Walk tall, stay strong, brother.